Yes, I'm a strong advocate of knotting the ends of ropes, even when being lowered. Sometimes, shat does happen.

Agree 100%. Denise and I always "discuss" this. She always wants them. I'm situational. Red Rocks rapelling...no knots for me for the most part...situationally dependant of course. Tie knots...have bivy.

If preaching safety, what about a rappel backup? How many people use one? I think we need a poll.

In my experience, albeit less extensive than Steve's and yours Shawn, unless it is windy I have no reservations about knots. We came down crimson chrysalis with no issues whatsoever, even tho there was some wind and there are lots of chances for snags. I agree sometimes you can't take the chance, but it is a rule of thumb. yes there are exceptions but that judgement should not be left to 'rookies' IMHO.

tie knots in your ropes when rappelling.

I used a Rappell back up when I was pregnant. now I always use 2 biners in my ATC when I rappell, and with my weight and our rope I nearly need to feed the rope through to get down.

I was just going to say that when I was in Vegas I didn't put knots in the ends of the ropes. Gladly too, on both Epinephrine and Prince of Darkness we had issues without the knots!

If the conditions are prone to snags then don't toss your rope. Transfer your coils to a sling and clip it to your belay loop or haul loop and knot both ends. As you rap the coils will feed smoothly and you have 0% chance of snags since your always within arms length from the end of your rope. It works smoothly and takes no time. Try it, you might like it. The problems mentioned above so far are not from putting in knots... they're either from failing to take them out, or from tossing a rope when it really shouldn't have been tossed.

If are rapping on a 60 meter rope and you KNOW the ground is less than 30 meters below, why would you put knots in your rope? It does depend on the situation.

you can still rap off the end if the middle of the rope isn't at the anchor. however, i was more referring to multipitch raps.

why put on your seat belt if you KNOW you're only going to the corner store?

I'd like to add that I've seen many people tie a simple overhand knot a meer foot from the end. In my opinion this does not constitue a keeper knot that will prevent you from rapping off the end. I'd recommend a figure eight with at least 4ft of tail and tighten the thing down a bit don't leave it all big and loose.

Before coming to Canada I had never seen anyone rappel without a backup (prusik knot). But here I feel I'm the only one using it.

Also, before combing here I was used to always tying knots in the end of the rope, even on rappels as short as 15m. Just because sometimes people rap out of their rope, for example when they mix up the half rope marks with the petzl "10m from the end" marks (I read about that in Rock&Ice a while ago, I think), and because falling 5m can still place me in a roller chair.

I'm not saying knots are always a bad thing. I'm sure they have saved lives. What I am saying is it is not good to advise carte blanche to always tie knots. A teacher should give their students all relevent information (options, +/- of each option, scenarios, etc.) and allow students to apply this information to a given situation. The carrying and use of prussik cords, leading to retreive stuck ropes, etc. should also be taught. Attentiveness, rappel backup and tripple checking things (distance to next rappel, how much rope left, where your ends are, is your rope hung up on something, etc.) are probably equally/more important than simply using knots.

I usually do use a backup on rap. Not 100% but usually. Always on ice, on a long rap, multi station rap or skinnier ropes. I then give my partner a fireman belay when she raps. I personally use an autoblok off my leg loop below my atc...but there are many options and opinions for a suitable backup. As a bonus on ice, it saves wear on your gloves and isn't hot on warm days with skinny ropes.

Wow is this thread ever drifting in all directions.

Sunny and 10. Is everyone climbing tomorrow

Did Telefunken get cleaned and rebolted on the weekend?

Dom had multiple issues this weekend. I think he plans on coming back on wednesday to finish this up.

Heck yes.......it's time to reap the fruits of our labours!

Well this is one climbed that didnt want to get cleaned/rebolted this weekend.

First of all the drill I had borrowed had 4 batteries and I found out sitting on my harness after having set up the rope that none of them were recharged. I drilled a hole about 3mm deep next to the first bolt and no more juice. I then rapped down to get another battery, grigri up the line and dug another 1mm before the 2nd battery died on me...I then noticed that both of the other batteries were dead...So I went back up with my hand drill to finish the hole and at least put in the first new bolt and remove the first old bolt. After 20min of hand drilling and a very sore wrist I quit!
So, I lugged up a 25pound drill w/batteries up the hill with my climbing gear and my camping gear for nothing...

This was done in the dark as you saw me set up the rope around dusk Greg so I then proceeded to clean from top to bottom. I cleaned about 20 feet of the top and I was starting to get really hot because it was so nice out Saturday night so I took my toque off...MY HEADLAMP WAS ON IT...So it fell and I was stuck there in complete darkness. I didnt clean the rest in the dark. I learned a lesson. Do not clean in the dark!
So I might go tomorrow clean it if I can get the drill with recharged batteries this time. If not it will go to next weekend.

On the other hand, we did clean Lady Dye up at Minkey quite well on Saturday... We also had intentions to put 3 bolts on that route and free it but with the defunct drill it will be done another time...

I use knots in my ropes about 10% of the time.

climbing tomorrow!! yay! Upper Tier. Project for Fred and just climbing and enjoying for me. Thank you Grandmama! LOL

Shawn, I use a autoblok off my leg loop as well when I use one. I haven't needed on in a while ... have you seen how fat our ropes are? I sure hope santa brings us a new one! LOL

that was 'you' in the general sense i'm not asking what you advocate for yourself lol.

i'm asking if you advocate to the climbing community to not use knots when rappelling.

I don't think cutting the rope is quite the same as knots in rappel line.....

haha - this sounds very familiar (eh Greg)... hehe - I'm a strong advocate for knots...
AND prussics (ask poor Fred on our descent from Geronimo)...

Since this seems to be a multi topic thread with a "safety" theme, I'm curious to those who insist on knots in the end of yer ropes, what type of anchor do you use for sport climbing? A draw to each bolt? Or locker to each bolt, equalized and redundant webbing/cordelette and two o&o lockers on the rope end? Knowing the answer, why so adamant about the knots?

Something that I've observed about teaching, particularly when it comes to climbing, is that a beginner can really only absorb 3-4 key points at a time. I watched this year as someone attempted to give a 30-minute crash course on everything climbing. Subjects included knots, rapping, anchors, cams, nuts, bolt placement, belaying, and a number of very interesting situations which cause one to act in some way contrary to a 'rule-of-thumb'. Afterwards, I asked a few of the people crowded around what they retained from the little session. The answer was 'nothing'.

Shawn and Steve make a good case for a long period of learning whereby an inexperienced person can be taught to identify proper action through situational expereince. The apprenticeship model. That's indeed the best case but guess what... I see very little of that going on around here.

Many people today are getting their climbing education from a 2 day course, a book, or reading something online. If that's all they're getting and I've got limited ability to explain the dozens of complexities out there... I'll stick with the rule of thumb that works 99 times out of 100... especially when the 1 time it doesn't work isn't likely to get you killed. I've still not read a good reason to stop preaching knots.

I use and teach the latter.

hmm - if it's just for a second to climb/clean - two quickdraws...
if the kids are with us...I set up a proper TR anchor...

I put knots at the end of my rope when rapping because I saw a guy deck from 20ft at Skaha when he rapped off the end of his rope. You might think 20ft is not bad but if you've ever been at Skaha you know that the base of every climb has sharp jagged boulders. Furthermore, the climb he rapped off of was only about 40 ft so he assumed like a lot of of us do, that both ends were touching the ground. He left on a stretcher in very bad shape... Add insult to injury, he was only 1month in a 5months climbing trip and had to fly back home to Switzerland to get pins in his leg.



Firemen belay does the same as a prussik if you're cragging. I will do it with my partners even if they don't ask me...

If not sometimes when multi-pitching if I rapp down first I'll use a french prussik...I hate the conventionnal prussik.

Hahaha. Sorry for being cranky that day. I just wanted to get off that thing and the chit chat and back-up prussiks were certainly not speeding things up.

I learned a couple things though:

1. Always be self sufficient and don't rely on other parties' ropes to get off a climb (i.e. bring two ropes if you need two ropes)

2. If you ignore #1 above... Bring a jacket!!!! LOL

Good times though. Must get back there soon.

Fred

I know fireman belay works but often there are no people at the bottom or they are busy sorting gear/drinking beer/discussing bolt ethics So instead of assuming there might be someone, I'd use the prussik always (the french type).

This is a pretty knotty thread. LoL.

If there is doubt of hitting the bottom with your rope, yeah, put knots in. Situational as Steve put it. sometimes knots in your rope will cause an epic as previously mentioned. It's happened.

As far as knots saving someone's life... many years ago on Joe's Garage, someone was rappelling from Snakepeel and was a few feet from rapping off the rope and falling about 30 feet. I was watching and warned the climber of their situation. Had I knot been there to notice that detail, this person may be in rough shape. Knots in the end would have helped here, but shouldn't have been a factor. Snakepeel isn't that tall. Someone had been careless with finding the center of the rope. One end made it to the ground but the other had not.

Climb Safe!

it's okay Fred - - it was still a great day - lots of fun challenges... haha - still love ya - no worries... would love to be back to Red Rocks....

I will have to dig his book out to be sure, but I thought one of their problems was passing the knot in the lowering rope through the belay device.

I think that wasn't because he put a knot in the end of the rope, but because he joined two topes to make it longer. You can't do that without a knot, sorry.
Anyway, with a (french) prussik knot he would have solved it quite easily, even though his hands were frozen.